Midway Check In: This Arab is Queer: An Anthology by LGBTQ+ Arab Writers
and an Interview with The Queer Arabs Podcast 🌈🎙️
Fallen angel by my side
Heaven holding me, so I don't ever give you up
Like a breath, I leave with love
Like a breath, I leave with love
Angel, Shygirl Fatima Al Qadiri
The cover art for this post is DISCO SAUDI by Queer Habibi
Schedule
Kick-off: January 5, 2024✓Midway:January 16, 2024✓Final Discussion: Friday, January 26, 2024 @ 6:00 PM (PST) 🌈
You can RSVP for the Digital Hang here - This means you get an email with the link to join on the day of and gives me a good idea of how many folks to expect!
If you can’t make it to the digital hang, you can always use the comment section to leave your thoughts, reviews, and reflections at any time.
Interview with The Queer Arabs Podcast 🌈🎙️
I had the pleasure of interviewing the hosts of The Queer Arabs Podcast. I sent them my questions via email and they were kind enough to send me their replies.
Alia, Ellie and Nadia discuss the challenges and successes in the making of their podcast, their approach to intersectionality of identities within the queer Arab community and so much more. They even give a couple of book and podcast recommendations for us. I hope you enjoy reading and getting to know them as much as I did.
If the email cuts off make sure to expand it to read the entire thing.
Can you share a bit about your personal journey and what led you to start your podcast?
Alia: Growing up, I was mostly disconnected from the Arab (Saudi) side of my family; I wasn't finding much of a place within Arab community spaces, and most (white-dominated) queer spaces weren't feeling quite right either. I didn't realize it at the time, but I craved a community and a space where all of the parts of me could be fully acknowledged and celebrated. Starting The Queer Arabs Podcast in 2018 has led to a beautiful space through which I've made profound connections.
Ellie: I always struggled to find my place both in queer culture and Lebanese culture. White queer folks usually were about the coming out and being out and proud. I get that, but I always feared losing my family connection as a result. Thankfully it didn’t turn out that way. I know it was a lot for my family to handle, my family immigrated and was born in the US, so I think coming out as pan and transgender was a lot. The podcast started with Alia and I, she had the social outgoing and ability to reach out to virtually anyone and I had the tech and hardware.
Nadia: I was not a founding member of this podcast, but I started out as a listener. At the time, it was pretty rare to come across content at the intersection of those identities, particularly content that wasn’t exclusively focused on political activism. (That is definitely a part of it, but I also was also seeking everyday personal narratives I could connect to.) I was also excited to see conversations that bridged the gaps between people in the SWANA region, immigrants from the region, and people born in the diaspora, because those divides bothered me as an Arab-American. Later, I became friends with the hosts in person and started hosting while I was Alia’s roommate during the pandemic.
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In your opinion, why is it important to have a platform that specifically focuses on the intersection of being queer and Arab?
Alia: The understanding of intersectionality in general is vital, and with the queer and Arab cross section specifically, one of the aims of the podcast is to dispel any myths that queer Arabs are a rarity. Simply saying “we exist” is powerful.
Nadia: First and foremost, this podcast is for people who identify with it to connect and relate. The name of the podcast reflects the identities of the hosts, but our pool of guests isn’t strictly defined. We include people whose ethnicities are more broadly Southwest Asian and North African but not Arab specifically (e.g. Iranian, Kurdish), as well as people of other backgrounds who resonate with the themes we discuss.
On a broader level, it’s important that Queer Arabs speak for themselves because these identities are pitted against each other for various political agendas. Pinkwashing--the idea of Israel as an LGBTQ safe-haven--is weaponized by the Israeli government to justify the oppression and genocide of Palestinian people. The idea of Arabs as uniformly homophobic and therefore less culturally evolved has been weaponized in the US and Europe to argue for immigration restrictions. Conversely, the historically incorrect idea of queerness as a Western intervention has been weaponized by Arab governments to suppress queer expression and organizing through maligning it with colonialism, Zionism, and foreign allegiances.
Ellie: Growing up I just didn’t ever see anyone like me, there wasn’t a future me in the world. No one who looked like me or was like me. I think the podcast at least gives folks a place to see themselves or someone they want to be like.
What has changed since you’ve started the Queer Arabs podcast in 2018? What things have stayed the same?
Alia: I’m realizing that my answer to the 2nd question would have been so different in 2018, and that’s exactly what has changed (at least in my experience). In 2018, I would have said that I hardly knew any other queer Arabs, that I felt alone in that identity, and I had (a slim amount of) hope that this podcast would reach others who felt the same. Now, however, I live in a reality in which other queer Arabs surround me, and I can’t imagine not having this community. Throughout the whole time (almost 6 years - wow!), one constant has been the knowledge that I have so much to learn - a lifetime of learning - and this podcast helps to facilitate that.
Nadia: There are now many more platforms that focus on Queer Arab and SWANA experiences. That’s great! It’s so important that we uplift and collaborate with each other in this landscape, instead of competing to be the first or the only to do something. I’ve also seen more mainstream Arab-American organizations increasingly center queer people and narratives.
At the same time, it’s bittersweet to see that this exponential, previously unimaginable shift in visibility doesn’t automatically improve political circumstances. Sometimes increased visibility leads to increased backlash from conservatives in government (we’ve seen this both in the US and various SWANA countries in the last few years).
With regards to how our podcast specifically has changed or not, we’ve definitely gone through ebbs and flows with how active we are, mostly based on our individual lives and capacity. Our priority is to keep the project going at a pace we can sustain, which also counters the mainstream narrative of Queer Arab issues as a sensationalist, “very special episode” topic.
Ellie: Mainstream SWANA attitudes have stayed most the same. But I think folks like us are a lot more hopeful we can be fully accepted. We really lucked on starting this at the start of a whole lot of queer arabs becoming very visible very quickly. It was awesome.
“I live in a reality in which other queer Arabs surround me, and I can’t imagine not having this community.”
Have there been specific challenges you've encountered as a queer Arab podcast host, and how have you navigated them?
Alia: While I deeply love this podcast, one challenge has been trying to find the time, discipline, and mental capacity to put out episodes as frequently as we can. Each episode takes quite a bit of work, and a lot of love goes into them. Another challenge has been finding a constant balance between being open and vulnerable and maintaining a sense of safety and maintaining personal boundaries.
Nadia: I agree with Alia, finding the energy to keep this going as a passion project (we’re comfortable with the decision not to monetize or professionalize it) is hard amidst our usual workloads. It’s been important not to take an all-or-nothing approach and periodically adjust our workload to a level that seems sustainable.
We’ve also had more issues keeping the Arabic side of our podcast going (previously hosted by our friend Ahmed). Speaking about queer issues in Arabic can open you up to more scrutiny and danger, so guests are understandably more hesitant. Still, we think the archive of Arabic episodes we have is important and we hope to strategize ways to continue in the future.
Ellie: I’m probably the shyest of the regular hosts, talking to new people is very hard for me. To be honest I’ve relied a lot on Alia, Nadia and Ahmed to make the social connections needed to make this work. I can fix and record anything but without them there would be no podcast. I do miss Ahmed a lot tho.
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Can you share a memorable moment or triumph that stands out in your podcasting journey?
Alia: There are so many that it’s hard to narrow this down! One highlight for me was giving a workshop to a group of university students. Just knowing that the topic of queer Arabs is being given space in university settings is something I’d have never imagined when I was in that stage of life.
Nadia: Podcasting live at 2019 World Pride events stands out in my mind as a bright light before the pandemic. For various reasons, it was the first and last time I felt so excited about pride events, and being newly connected with Queer SWANA community was a huge part of that.
Ellie: For me it was the Yallapunk festival. It felt like coming to a home I never knew I had. Made lots of friends there that I still chat with.
Have you received any feedback from listeners that particularly resonated with you?
Alia: One piece (of many pieces of great) feedback I've kept in mind is that listeners sometimes enjoy our very off-the-cuff, rambling episodes with just the hosts on them. When we don't have a guest lined up or a specific episode planned, we occasionally have very random, unplanned ones with each other, and they feel messy. It was helpful to know that these are appreciated nonetheless, and we can and should still put those out sometimes!
Ellie: Same I never thought anyone would like hearing me just talk!
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How do you go about selecting guests for your podcast, and what do you look for in their stories or experiences?
Alia: It’s been exciting to make connections in unexpected ways - we’ve been connected with guests through former guests or friends of ours. Sometimes we’ll read a book and contact the author, leading to the author being on an episode! We strive to have guests of many backgrounds who we align with morally and politically.
Nadia: Yeah, we connect pretty organically, which means we don’t claim to be objective or perfectly representative of any community...but who really can? That said, we’re always happy to expand the range of experiences represented, and we let guests take the lead on what we talk about.
Occasionally we’ll be interested in highlighting a particular issue (for instance, I’d like to do an episode about the Kafala system and migrant worker rights) and then look for a guest with the right expertise. This is more challenging, because we don’t want to obligate individuals to discuss particular experiences (especially traumatic ones) and more structured organizations, if they don’t focus on queer issues, may have legal or safety concerns about partnering with a queer podcast.
“I've kept in mind is that listeners sometimes enjoy our very off-the-cuff, rambling episodes with just the hosts on them. “
Can you share an episode or interview that left a lasting impression on you, and why?
Alia: I’d like to highlight the episodes featuring Al Qaws (there is one in English and one in Arabic, both published in the spring of 2020). Now, with what is happening to Gaza, and to Palestine as a whole, I’ve been thinking about that episode a lot. One of the many talking points of anti-Palestine folks is that queer people are so terribly under attack in Palestine (with the implication that this somehow justifies the genocide). I wish everyone who makes such claims would listen to the episode with Al Qaws and learn about pinkwashing, and maybe then reevaluate their own mental gymnastics.
Nadia: We did two episodes with Tarek Mohamed, an activist and sociologist from Egypt (who is sadly no longer with us). What struck me was that even when I didn’t completely agree with some of his ideas--say about the relationship between the nuclear family and authoritarianism--the combination of intelligence and compassion behind his analysis made me deeply reconsider and understand my own beliefs.
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Have you faced challenges in addressing potentially sensitive topics, and how do you ensure cultural sensitivity in your content?
Alia: There have been so many times when I feel ill-equipped to speak in an informed way about a particular identity or topic in general. I try to maintain constant transparency with guests and listeners about my limitations on any given topic, and to just listen and learn from those who ARE able to speak on a given subject.
Nadia: We try to prioritize making our guests comfortable first and foremost, never obligating anyone to discuss a topic they don’t want to and letting them request any edits.
With regards to our audience, I’ll say we get much less hate than we expect, even for a modest-size platform. I think part of that is the long-form nature of that content (few haters are that committed) and most of our audience is invested enough to interpret what we have to say pretty generously.
The idea of cultural sensitivity is a double edged sword, because it can always be invoked against us--some people claim that discussing queerness and sex is against Arab culture, so anything we say can be considered culturally insensitive. On the other hand, cultural differences are a real thing that many of us feel deeply: for example, a lot of us from more collectivist cultures don’t relate to more individualistic calls to come out unapologetically and cut off all family and community members who aren’t immediately supportive. In general, we just have to remember that all of our beliefs are shaped (partially) by our personal contexts.
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How do you approach the intersectionality of identities within the queer Arab community, such as race, gender, religion, or socioeconomic factors?
Alia: I don’t want our podcast to contribute to any exclusion or marginalization of anyone who should feel safe in our community. Colorism, classism, racism, religious discrimination, and transphobia are all rampant within Arab spaces, within queer spaces, and within queer Arab spaces. As a host of this podcast, I try to keep my eyes out for platforms that focus on celebrating various intersectionalities, and invite conversations to happen on our podcast that need to be had and listened to. Additionally, I’m getting more and more accepting of, and comfortable with, the idea that we will have messy conversations. No one knows how to talk about everything beautifully or perfectly, and that’s part of being human, of growing and learning, and of acknowledging that we have so much to continue to strive to improve internally as a community.
“The idea of cultural sensitivity is a double edged sword, because it can always be invoked against us--some people claim that discussing queerness and sex is against Arab culture, so anything we say can be considered culturally insensitive. On the other hand, cultural differences are a real thing that many of us feel deeply…”
Are there specific goals or topics you aspire to cover in the future?
(All of us) definitely want to make some episodes happen that focus on the Kefala system.
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Do you have any book (or movie, show, or podcast) recommendations for Queerthology readers?
Alia: You Exist Too Much by Zaina Arafat!
Nadia: Books: When We Were Arabs by Massoud Hayoun, Hijab Butch Blues by Lamya H. (both former guests of our podcast). Podcast: Enculturation Podcast, The Fire These Times
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For individuals considering starting their own podcast, especially within the LGBTQ+ or diaspora communities, what advice would you offer based on your experiences?
Alia: My main advice is: Just start one. If you’re thinking about it, go for it. Our first few episodes had terrible audio quality, and I didn’t know what I was talking about or doing, really. You are going to reach people who will relate to you in some way, and our voices (the LGBTQ+ and diaspora communities) need to be heard. Our voices, not the voices of others who attempt to speak for us!
Nadia: This is going to sound like a joke, but I mean it. Listen to some bad podcasts to take some of the pressure off. So many cis white men feel confident to spew totally unqualified trash--chances are what you have to say is of higher quality than a lot of what’s out there.
Also, take advantage of the fact that you can podcast with anyone around the world! Don’t be afraid to reach out to potential guests you admire, even if it feels like a reach! When interviewing people who also do more mainstream media interviews, try to ask questions they don’t normally get asked (and find out what they wish they got to talk about more instead!)
Ellie: Go make mistakes! Its fine, you can always improve later. Hardware, software and such don’t matter either, just record, edit and publish and be a bit better each time. Also reach out to anyone, most folks will be happy to talk to you if you’re passionate about the topic.
Seriously, people love to gush about their passions. Getting someone to talk about them for an hour is just pure joy.
In the face of current world events, what gives you hope for the future of the queer Arab community, both locally and globally?
Alia: Having each other. It sounds cliche, but our collective resistance, strength, and mere co-existence makes it more possible to live in an authentic manner that the world has to keep being confronted with.
Nadia: On a slightly different note, I feel hopeful about the ways that people outside the Arab and SWANA community are showing up for Palestine in their own ways, particularly other people of color drawing connections to their own histories of colonization and oppression, anti-Zionist Jews saying “not in my name,” and queer/trans people standing against Pinkwashing. Obviously, the main focus is on stopping genocide, but as a secondary effect, I look forward to the bonds of solidarity that we’ll build out of this movement.
Ellie: That new faces pop up in our space all the time, we’re growing as a community and people seem less afraid to talk and share their joys and sorrows. Not that folks have to be public, but it always makes me feel better to see folks like me out in the world.
“Our collective resistance, strength, and mere co-existence makes it more possible to live in an authentic manner that the world has to keep being confronted with.”
Is there anything I forgot to ask you or that you’d like to say?
Alia: I loved all of these questions - it was nice to reflect through these! Thank you so much for inviting us to share!
Ellie: If you ever want to chat with us we’re up for it.
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Thank you so much Nadia, Ellie and Alia for taking the time to answer my questions! It was so wonderful to read all of your responses and get to know you and your show a little better. We will definitely get together for a chat in the future.
You can listen to The Queer Arabs Podcast on Apple Podcasts, Spotify or wherever you listen to podcasts.
Your Reading So Far
How is your reading going?
Are you reading in order or jumping around?
Have you been able to write down any thoughts, journal, draw, etc. as you read?
Thoughts and Feelings
Are there any essays you already know will be your favorites?
Are there any essays that have resonated with you very strongly?
How do you think you’ll feel once you are done reading?
The Queer Arabs Podcast
What did you think of the interview?
What else would you ask the hosts of the Queer Arabs podcast?
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Great interview!
I’m halfway rn and reading in order. So far every author has been impactful and impressionable. These are their lives and experiences, and I think that what moves me the most is the bravery each author has shown. To be a threat for existing and expressing one’s self, and taking that risk anyway; there are no words.
Saleem Haddad is one of the authors I find myself thinking about a lot. The helplessness of watching his family acclimated to a disarrayed Beirut, his depiction of his complex and at the same time, simplistic relationship with his lover, and his identity in that gray area of biculturalism has lingered in my thoughts hours and even days after reading it. I loved his writing as a craft too.
I’m really glad I picked this up and it wouldn’t have been on my radar had it not been for queerthology.
What an amazing interview 😍